Pete Thamel of SI.com thinks that Penn State’s head coach, Bill O’Brien, would be one of five potential candidates to replace beleaguered Mack Brown at the University of Texas. His reasoning is that O’Brien revived a major brand that was in turmoil, and would be an attractive prospect to do the same where the bloom is off the yellow rose.
Of course, this is the speculation of a sports writer and nothing else at this point. I can look at it from two angles. One is that at Texas, O’Brien would have the unfettered ability to make gross changes for better or worse, undaunted by scandals and alumni clinging to the past. In this case, the alumni wish to depose his predecessor would give him a longer honeymoon. The other is that he’s partway through a rebuilding process at Penn State, so why leave until his job is complete? His brand will be worth much more with such a successful project under his belt.
However, there’s no doubt in this turkey’s birdbrain that Texas has enough money to throw at the job to entice anyone out there. Football in Texas is a religion. It’s life. You throw at it whatever resources it takes to make it healthy.
I have a better idea. Since they’re in the market for an AD, how about spending all that money on “stealing” Dave Joyner from Penn State. That would be a merciful crime.
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BigAl says
O’Brien would may very well have the “ability to make gross changes” (as long as they work), but I can guarantee that he will face “alumni clinging to the past” who think Darrell Royal was the son of Jesus Christ.
Plus, BoB really isn’t a Texas kind of guy. His Boston accent and style won’t work in Texas. And I don’t think he’ll look quite right in lizard boots and a white Stetson. Even a Connecticut Yankee like George W Bush had to become a faux Texan.
The Nittany Turkey says
Points well taken, although I’ll offer a rebuttal below, but not before somewhat agreeing with the notion that a Boston Baked Bob doesn’t fit the Darrell Royal mold in more ways than just his accent. It was Darrell who famously stated that when you throw the ball, three things can happen and two of them are bad. The ghost of St. Darrell would never permit a disciple to throw the ball 55 times in a game.
However, could you see Texas not going after Nick Saban because he’s from West Virginia or Urban Meyer because he’s from Ohio? Neither one of those guys talks with a Texas twang or salutes the Lone Star flag in any way, but I bet they would hire either one in a heartbeat if they were to become available. Of course, this is all hypothetical, but I believe the Texas job will prove to be more about substance than style.
The job description you’ve laid out would be too restrictive. Only Bum Phillips would be qualified, and he’s 90.
—TNT
BigAl says
Actually, some of the Texas billionaires did approach Saban’s agent over the off season, but he allegedly turned them down.
To be serious for a moment, I don’t think BoB has enough of a proven track record to satisfy the billionaires. They’re going to want somebody that has a BCS championship already. I could definitely see them hiring Urbz or Les Miles. If that doesn’t work out maybe somebody that’s coaching at a BCS contender like Jimbo Fisher
The Nittany Turkey says
Yeah, you’re no doubt right about that. Money talks and bullshit walks, as the old saying goes. O’Brien has yet to prove anything as a head coach of a tier one football program (see below for definition), and must build some credentials before he will be considered by an established power like Texas with the big booster bucks riding on the choice. When Texas finally gets an AD and gets into replace Mack mode, O’Brien will have an 8-4 and a 6-6 (at best) on his head coaching resume.
It’s one of the most desirable jobs in college football, and ultimately, one of the most demanding. Even volleyball and cheerleader moms in Texas are killers; football boosters are on a completely rarified stratum of viciousness. I’m going to love watching this situation unfold.
—TNT
BigAl says
When it comes to overemphasis on high school football, Texas is a league by itself. Some high schools have stadiums that are bigger and better than any FCS college stadium and most have as air conditioned indoor practice facilities.
When I lived in Texas, the local football boosters pushed a bond issue to replace the indoor practice facility because it was only 50 yards long and the team couldn’t practice kickoffs adequately. Fortunately, the public voted down the bond issue, but it was probably the only time in history that an athletics related bond issue failed.
The Nittany Turkey says
I spent a lot of time doing consulting in Dallas and had an apartment there in Las Colinas, not far from Texas Stadium. I got a major dose of the “Friday Night Lights” mentality while I was there. Everybody had to be immersed in all phases of football — scholastic, college, and pro. My client’s two high school age daughters would even toss a ball around in the yard rather than do girl stuff. And every time Tony Dorsett fumbled, the Trinity River overflowed its banks, flooded by the collective tears of the entire citizenry of the Dallas Metroplex.
—TNT
K. John says
During college football’s modern age, no coach of a tier one program has ever left for another tier one program and they don’t leave for the NFL very often either. Both Penn State and Texas are tier one programs, along with Notre Dame, Ohio State, Michigan, Alabama, Nebraska, Southern Cal and Oklahoma. Every other job is a stepping stone to one of these positions.
All reports out of Happy Valley indicate its magic has gotten to Mrs. BoB just as it got to Sue Paterno. He isn’t going anywhere any time soon.
The Nittany Turkey says
Yeah, I’ve read that stuff about O’Brien and family really liking Happy Valley, the schools, etc. There’s a lot to like. However, there are lots of magical college towns. Penn State homeys tend to walk around with blinders on thinking that Happy Valley is the be-all and end-all. So do alumni from many other schools in great settings around the country. They’re thinking with their hearts, and I don’t blame them. We all had lots of good times in HV. It is a fine, pleasant community, except for all the drunks running around on weekends. But we were carefree college drunks and life is replete with business decisions we choose not to think about when we drift back to State College in our reveries.
Money can buy a good place to live in Austin, which is a great town, too, although what BigAl says is true: they probably don’t want O’Brien, anyway, because he doesn’t have “rings”.
Nevertheless, your assertion about Mrs. BoB influencing her DH to stay in State College is much more compelling than the other stuff you pulled out of — the air.
I’d love to see your definition of a tier one program. What constitutes a tier one program? Oregon isn’t one? Or Florida or FSU? What about Clemson or LSU? UCLA? Is it the money they pay their coaches? Then Iowa must be tier one. How does one differentiate tier one from tier two? Please educate me, because I know nothing of this tier system.
I guess your reasoning holds if Florida is not tier one and Meyer goes to tOSU. Bielema going to Arkansas from UWisc is ok because they’re not tier one. Lane Kiffin going from Tennessee to USC — well, Tennessee isn’t tier one, by your definition, whatever it might be. While Chip Kelly went to the NFL, Oregon isn’t tier one. Ahhhh, Pete Carroll went to the NFL from tier one USC, which is why you said not very often. Barry Switzer, too. But not Spurrier, because Florida isn’t tier one. What about Saban going from LSU to Alabama. Hold on, LSU isn’t first tier. OK, I guess you’re right if you pick your tier one schools carefully. But anyone can create an arbitrary subset and use it to validate an assertion, which is why we need to understand the rule set.
How about Joe Walton, who used the Jets job in the NFL as a stepping-stone to the coaching position at Robert Morris?
I’m not trying to be a smartass (not too much, anyway) but I don’t think your assertion is true.
—TNT
K. John says
You know a tier one school when you see it. The fact remains that the history of the nine tier one programs clearly distance themselves from everyone else. Comparing the history and tradition of every other program to those schools doesn’t work. It takes more than a decade or two of success to get there.
Florida, if they keep going, will be one some day but it takes a lot more than 25 years of success and a couple of highly debatable national championships to make the leap. Tennessee is as close as anybody despite the lost decade that is post-Fulmer Knoxville. Currently Florida is a stepping stone job. So is LSU, Tennessee and Oregon.
As for Pete Carroll, I didn’t even consider him as he was going to get fired if he didn’t leave and everybody knows it.
The Nittany Turkey says
I figured.
—TNT
Joe says
And which decades of success did you consider that got PS admitted in the club? Were those consecutive years within each decade or did you mix and match? And I wouldn’t be counting all those years we played all of the Eastern patsies.
The Nittany Turkey says
Penn State is in a tier of its own. Who the hell else had the same head coach for nigh on to a half-century? However, we can easily incorporate the Penn State into tier one because you know a tier one school when you see it. You just have to use a little imagination.
—TNT
K. John says
Just a quick question, beyond Penn State, how much do you guys know about the history of college football? The difference between the nine top programs and everyone else is pretty shocking. They are all among the leaders in all time winning percentage. They all have titles distributed over the history of college football. They all have demonstrated consistent and long term success. They all have some or multiple high distinctions. None of them are flash in pan programs that pop up for a few years only to fade away. The difference between Michigan State, Florida, Tennessee, UCLA and the Big Nine is dramatic. In the grand scheme of things, Florida is no better than Minnesota or Michigan State. LSU is a little ahead due to past and current success but clearly multiple rungs below the Big Ten. If you wanted to break up the top tier into two that would be fine. Notre Dame comprises the top all by themselves, USC, Alabama and Ohio State drop a little followed by the other five. Any way you look at it, Notre Dame, USC, Alabama, Ohio State, Oklahoma, Penn State, Texas, Michigan and Nebraska are head and shoulders above all others and the rest are not close.
Joe says
Well, I’ve been following college football since around 1965, so I think I know a little more than you think. In fact, I’d rather watch a college game rather than the pros anytime. I will agree that PS is one of the top “brands” in college football (the Sandusky mess aside), but we really did not begin to have any “success” until the late sixties and again that was mostly against the weak sisters of the east. I don’t know where you begin your datum point, but I will tell you that the University of Chicago has won more Big Ten championships than Dear Old State. Does your criteria include NC’s, conference championships, winning percentage, wins or what. If you include Nebraska in your list, who had a stretch of success under Osborne, there are a lot of other schools that you omit that might be considered on your list. Did you read Stewart Mandel’s “Kings of College Football” (link attached)? Check it out!
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/stewart_mandel/07/11/kings-barons-knights-peasants-mailbag/index.html
K. John says
It is interesting that the article you site, with the exception of a few recent powers, basically echoes my thoughts. As far as other comments, Penn State is more than Joe Paterno. State was a turn of the century power and was a good team under Rip. The Florida Schools are complete flash in the pan programs. LSU at least has some early success to draw upon but a whole lot of nothing in between. I would posit that those four clearly fall below the other schools and they do.
Joe says
I knew you would think that you and Mandel are in perfect alignment, but where you say yes, he says no, so who is correct? Perhaps if you provided your criteria or mathematical formulae to reach your conclusions I could find some merit in your list and the logic used to develop it. If not, it’s just like Mandel’s-one man’s opinion! And that was my point!
The Nittany Turkey says
Butbutbut in the article I cited, ESPN did explain methodology. Check it out.
—TNT
The Nittany Turkey says
Under Rip Engle, Penn State played few powers, mostly eastern schools. I was a student in the Rip Engle era, so you can’t just slide that one by me. Syracuse and West Virginia would routinely clean our clocks. When we played schools from the Big Ten or Pac-8, we’d lose big time. During my time, PSU was 6-4, 5-5, 5-5, and then the great 1967 season that ended up 8-2-1 after a tie with stepping-stone, non-top tier FSU in the Gator Bowl, the one where people were second-guessing Paterno for years.
However, it wasn’t the big money pit of today and we were content to go to games, having fun win or lose. No one cared very much where the program ranked and whether it was tier one. When we beat #2 Ohio State at the horseshoe in 1964, it was such an unexpected big deal that we rioted in the streets. But I can’t say that anyone ever mistook Penn State for a national power back then.
And which turn of the century do you refer to? I thought we were talking about the modern era, so what kind of power did Penn State have in 2000? They were 5-7 that year after having been ranked 11th in 1999. That was the beginning of [play cello] The Dark Years, with only LJ’s 2000 yard year in 2002, with a 9-4 record, to distinguish them from the deep, dark, dank, dusty dungeon of despair.
Nahh, your Penn State argument is weak. The glory years of 1967 through 1994 (Paterno’s prime) were Penn State’s entry ticket to tier one. That glory has long since faded.
—TNT
The Nittany Turkey says
I just read Mandel’s thingie. IMHO, he properly includes Florida, FSU, LSU, and Miami in the top tier.
I have to agree with Mandel that Penn State’s glory years were congruent to Paterno in his prime, as I mentioned in another comment. That was 1967-1994. After that, bupkis. Before than, bupkis. We had the Liberty Bowl in ’59 and the OSU win in ’64. Those were the big deals. Not really top tier stuff.
Mandel is liable to give PSU the Tennessee skiddoo if it continues — for whatever reason — to produce mediocre results. I’d say he would be justified. PSU hasn’t been a NatChamp contender since 2005. Before that came the Dark Years and after that, mostly rank mediocrity — just two years in the bottom half of the top ten, one ranked 24, and four unranked.
Yeah, we need a few years to rebuild the glory of the Paterno prime years, if that can ever be reattained.
—TNT
The Nittany Turkey says
I’ve been following college football even longer than Joe. I was entering pools when I was a kid growing up in da Burgh in the 1950s, and I was privileged to see coaches like Ara Parseghian and Bud Wilkinson in action, running their tier one programs.
LSU was big back then, so I’m adding it to my equally arbitrary tier one list. They won the mythical national championship back in 1958 with Billy Cannon and the Chinese Bandits defense, coached by the great Paul Dietzel.
I started watching Penn State during the Richie Lucas era.
So, this whole notion of “you can tell a tier one program when you see it” is pure bullshit. It’s one man’s opinion, not necessarily shared by anyone important.
The next bone of contention will be what constitutes the “modern era”. Again, it is whatever you want to make it to justify your characterization of “tier one in the modern era”. You can disqualify LSU because the 1958 championship was pre-modern era, I suppose, but they also won in 2003 and 2007.
But then how can you arbitrarily exclude Florida State, which was ranked in the top five every year from 1987 to 2000? That sort of consistency makes the rest of your top tier teams look like pretenders. I’m adding them to my arbitray top tier.
Here’s something I dug up when looking at FSU’s record. In 2009, ESPN ranked Florida State as the ninth most prestigious college football program in history behind only Oklahoma, Southern California, Ohio State, Notre Dame, Nebraska, Texas, and Michigan. Miami was right behind FSU. Penn State was at #11, right behind Miami. The stepping-stone jobs at Tennessee and LSU were 12 and 13, respectively. The poor. flash in the pan Gators with their highly debatable national championships and their ability to clean Penn State’s clock, were 15th.
Of course, you can discredit that by saying it’s ESPN’s opinion, just like I discredit your tier one by saying it’s yours.
It’s an interesting look at college football, because aside from the all-time rankings, they rate each program in each of six time periods: through 1958, 1968, 1978, 1988, 1998, and the BCS era. Pick any set of those to constitute the “modern era.” (By the way, Penn State’s rank for those periods was 51, 31, 11, 9, 9, and 18, respectively. We’re going the wrong direction, and this was published after the 2008 season).
Check out the ESPN Prestige Rankings here.
—TNT
The Nittany Turkey says
P.S.
Thanks for starting this debate!
Whenever arguments progress to the point at which one can achieve a greater depth of understanding of a subject, they serve a useful purpose. Out of the ashes of contentiousness, a phoenix rises.
No matter what was your original intent, this comment thread has unearthed some interesting tangential information.
—TNT
Joe says
Ho-hum, more speculation on BOB leaving, yawn. Must be a slow day over at SI. Actually, I thought he was going to USC.
Loved his presser yesterday and the sad, sad faces among the press because they couldn’t pin him down to answer any of their dumb ass questions. Haven’t they realized yet, that this guy does not talk about losses, nor does he throw anyone under the bus.
I don’t read any of the shit about who is interested in him, when he’s going to go or where, simply because when he does we’ll know and maybe there will be wailing or gnashing of teeth or we’ll say good riddance.
Right now I’m more interested in whether I’m still going to be watching the Bucs after tonight!
The Nittany Turkey says
Well, what the hell — it was a slow news day for Thamel and me. But the hidden gem of it all was that in the ensuing discussion, we got the concise definition of “tier one”.
—TNT
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